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The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => Handbooks => : Solo February 10, 2011, 04:48:27 AM

: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Solo February 10, 2011, 04:48:27 AM
Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
Or How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love My Claws
By Keld Denar and Solo


This guide is dedicated to Aelrynth, who was instrumental in developing my understanding of the natural weapon rules


So, why do we need to have a guide to the usage of natural weapons, you ask? BECAUSE WE LIVE HERE!!!

Though primitive and crude to the untrained eye, the world of natural weapons offer much to melee characters. The main attraction of natural weapons is, of course, the ability to use them following your regular iterative attacks such as manufactured weapons and unarmed strikes.

What is a natural weapon?
“I know what you're thinkin', punk. Question is: 'Can I get Wolverine before he turns me into shish kabob with those claws?' Now bub, seein' that those claws are adamantium, the strongest metal known, and can slice through vanadium steel like a hot knife through butter, buddy, you gotta ask yourself: do I feel lucky?”

To begin, let us first start with another installment of my long running, Emmy nominated series “What is a Natural Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons)?”
 Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.
    Unless otherwise noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 20.
  When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary.
  The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a -5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a -2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity.
    Natural weapons have types just as other weapons do. The most common are summarized below.
Bite
    The creature attacks with its mouth, dealing piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage.
Claw or Talon
    The creature rips with a sharp appendage, dealing piercing and slashing damage.
Gore
    The creature spears the opponent with an antler, horn, or similar appendage, dealing piercing damage.
Slap or Slam
    The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage.
Sting
    The creature stabs with a stinger, dealing piercing damage. Sting attacks usually deal damage from poison in addition to hit point damage.
Tentacle
    The creature flails at opponents with a powerful tentacle, dealing bludgeoning (and sometimes slashing) damage.

How Fighting With Natural Weapons Works
“Haven't met anybody who's invulnerable to a well planted elbow in the groin.”

Main hand weapons are weapons you get your iterative attacks with. This is NOT required to be a single weapon. You could make main hand attacks with 3 different weapons, so long as you have enough BAB to make 3 attacks. Main hand attacks typically get 1x +str, unless you wield them in both hands. Note: You don't actually have to wield a weapon in any hands, provided its description allows it.

Offhand weapons are weapons who's attacks are derived from the two weapon fighting (henceforth to be referred to as TWFing) combat option, or through the higher tier TWFing feats. You don't need TWFing to TWF, but it helps reduce the penalties. You DO need Improved TWF and Greater TWF to make more than one offhand attack. All offhand attacks have to be with the same weapon, and it can't be with any weapon you used as part of your iterative attacks. Offhand attacks only ever recieve .5x +str damage, regardless of how many hands you wield them with. If you aren't TWFing, you don't have an offhand.

Primary natural attacks are a creature's main mode of attack. This is typically an attack with either the highest damage, or a combat ability such as Improved Grab. Its also typically the attack a creature makes AoOs and standard action attacks with. Primary natural attacks almost always get 1x Str, although some creatures, especially those with only a single natural weapon, may get 1.5x. There is no hard rule for this though, so consult a stat block for more details. In the presence of a weapon capable of making iteratives (manufactured weapon or UAS), all primary weapons are converted to secondary natural weapons. A natural attack that is full (such as carrying gear or a manufactured weapon) can not make attacks.

Secondary natural attacks are a creature's alternate modes of attack. During a full attack, each other natural weapon the creature possesses may make 1 attack at -5 from highest AB (-2 with Multiattack). Secondary natural weapons always only receive .5x+Str regardless of whether or not they dealt 1x or 1.5x as primary weapons. A natural attack that is full (such as carrying gear or a manufactured weapon) can not make attacks.

Obtaining Natural Weapons
“Snikt!”

Now, how do we get natural weapons? There are several routes, such as race, template, spells, and etc that can grant them, a full list of which can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595).

Naturally, even the best natural weapons are useless without a means of reliably achieving full attacks. Fortunately, there is also a list of ways to obtain pounce or free movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358).

The best natural weapons to get are ones that will not be occupied when you make your regular attacks. For example, a fighter who uses a greatsword would be better off with tails, bites, and tentacles rather than claws. A monk, on the other hand, is capable of making an unarmed strike with any part of his body so he can take on as many natural weapons as he feels like.

Enchanting Natural Weapons
"You're the one who oughtta be shakin' 'cause I'm about to carve you up into sushi."

The Amulet of Mighty Fists is three times as expensive as it should be, so it is only worthwhile if you have 3 or more natural weapons. The Necklace of Natural Weapons from Savage Species is cheaper to enchant and offers more options than just enhancement bonuses, but only applies to one natural weapon unless you pay a straight multiplier.  The break even point between the two is at 3 weapons or more when the AoMF becomes cheaper.  The NoNA does have the advantage of allowing +equivalent enhancements (like Wounding) and can reach a +10 total enhancement like a manufactured weapon, which the AoMF does not offer, if you are willing to pay the extra cash.

The Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic) grants INA and deals 1 Con damage on a critical hit, which is a pretty useful property to have. Only costs 10,000 gp.

The Ring of Adamant Touch (MIC) makes all your weapons overcome DR as if they were Adamantine for 6,000 gp.

Bracers of the Arcane (MIC) allow you to overcome DR silver and magic.

Jaws of the Dragon (Draconomicon) grants a bite attack as a creature one size larger for 40,000 gp.

Wyrmfang Amulet from the MIC is 1350 vs the 2500 for the one in Draconomicon.

Bands of Blood Rage from the MIC will boost all of your natural attacks for 2600 gp.

The Ghost Shroud from the MiC costs 5,000 gp and will grant you a +1 deflection bonus to AC and give your attacks the Ghost Touch property, allowing you to bust ghosts.

The best method for enchanting is probably the Kensai, which can enchant all of its natural weapons for XP. It’s not even a bad class for melee types. Failing that, if you're a Druid or have access to a Druid, casting Superior Magic Fang will give an enhancement bonus to all of your natural weapons.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Solo February 10, 2011, 05:05:17 AM
Reserved
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Solo February 10, 2011, 05:05:27 AM
Reserved
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Wyvernhand February 10, 2011, 05:13:09 AM
My name is Keld Denar (no, seriously!) and I approve this guide.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Felix Underwood February 10, 2011, 03:58:33 PM
Nice guide!  I've already recommended it to some friends.

: Solo
The Ghost Shroud from the MiC costs 5,000 gp and will grant you a +1 deflection bonus to AC and give your attacks the Ghost Touch property, allowing you to bust ghosts.
 How about this instead:  Gauntlets of Ghost Fighting (MIC, 216)  4,000gp

"This pair of heavy, black leather gloves bears suns and skulls of gold on the knuckles and around each wrist."

(I could see alowing for 'fingerless' leather gloves... all the cool kids from the 80's are doing it)

The wearer deals damage normally to incorporeal creatures with spells or attacks, ignoring the 50% miss chance.  Also, melee attacks made by the wearer deal an extra 1d6 damage vs incorporeal foes.

A thousand gp cheaper and you swap the +1 deflection (that you probably already have from a Ring of Protection) for an extra 1d6 damage and give ghost touch-like effect to your spells or "Attacks" (read: any attack? incarnum, (Su), breath weapon, etc...).

It's cheap enough that you could +50% slap it on another set of gloves...
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: PlzBreakMyCampaign February 10, 2011, 04:20:39 PM
I  :love this

My first thread on these boards was on graft weapon. It is doable for non-psionic melees and is useful for cheesing out weapon damage 'tiers' like improve natural weapon. It's definitely niche, but you can link to my charger build if you like.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Bigtuna February 24, 2011, 10:26:16 AM
I like what i see so far :-)

Here is a few thinks I would like in a natural weapons guide:

1) How to get more natural attacks (well the link kinda covers this)
- totemist dip (2 lvls for garillion totem bind)
- items
- templates
- races (Thri-Kreen)

2) how to get more attacks out of your natural attacks
- rapid attack (and how to get it)
- imp rapid attack

3) How to optimize damage from natural attacks
- imp natural attack feat
- grow in size (enlarge person, expansion, giant size, templates)
- claw of the beast (imp. claw dam)
 

: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: bearsarebrown February 24, 2011, 12:13:12 PM
What's so interesting about natural attacks is that there is no penalty for using a fuck ton of them. As long as you have a strong damage base past weapon damage(Str, Magic, Negative Levels), you can just keep piling on the attacks. If you're okay with creating an lovecraftian monstrosity you can easily have 17+ natural attacks.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Bigtuna February 25, 2011, 07:31:43 AM
A little more input, for natural weapons:

items: Fanged ring is NOT from sandstorm - it's from one of the dragon books: draconomicon, dragon magic or races of the dragon.
A few other items: Jaws of the dragon - (40k) Bite attack +1 size (draconomicon)
Spell: Magic, fang superior. Buff for ALL natural attacks, but personal so mostly for Gish or druids.(draconomicon)

Wyrmfang amulet - take the MIC version it's only 1350 vs the 2500 for the one in draconomicon.
Bands of blood rage (2600) from MIC is a nice way to boost all your natural attacks.
 
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Shiki February 25, 2011, 07:41:12 AM
items: Fanged ring is NOT from sandstorm - it's from one of the dragon books: draconomicon, dragon magic or races of the dragon.

Bolded one, p.101.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Hitoshura February 26, 2011, 03:38:19 PM
How about some Builds? I'm kinda interested in see how an Anthropomorphic Giant Octopus mixed with Kensai would go...
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Solo February 26, 2011, 05:20:58 PM
Actually, if you go to my Barbarian Handbook and look up Fistbear Bearfist...
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Bigtuna February 26, 2011, 09:58:39 PM
Well as long as we are brainstorming:

The BIG BUG with big sharp claws: (Tri-Kreen)
ECL 1/Monterous humanoid 2/Ardent1/Totemist 2/Warmind 10/+4 X
Feats: Flaw 1 (Multiattack), Flaw 2 (Imp. Multiattack),Racial: Deflect arrows Lvl 1(Education), Ardent (weapon focus: Claws ) lvl 3 (linked power), lvl 6 imp natural attack: (claw), lvl 9 practiced manifester lvl 12 open lvl 15 open lvl 18 open

The ardent + education is for meeting pre req for warmind, if you start at low levels a 1 lvl barbarian for pouche would help a lot getting through the first few levels.
Totemist is for garrillion bind: +2 claw attack and +2 to hit/dam on all claw attacks.
Warmind is for sweeping strike - so we can use all 6 attacks on 2 targets, and then like King of Smack we make our claws better with Claw of the beast, make them bigger with expansion and heal with Claw of the vampire

For the last few level a warblade 1+bloodclaw master 1 for full str to claw attacks is an option. Along with the barbarian as mentioned before...

: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: AtomicKitKat February 26, 2011, 11:44:12 PM
Clarification on Kensai: You can only imbue one type of Natural Attack. Make it the one you have the most of(and cry me a river of experience! ;))
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: cru February 27, 2011, 08:30:57 AM
Superior magic fang was updated in SpC, now druid/ranger 4, no longer a sor/wiz spell; however, it still sucks with standard action for round/level duration. Consider chaining greater magic fang with a lesser metamagic rod (14k, MIC).

If you have claws, Claws of the Savage (BoVD) can grow them by 2 size categories and gives +2 enhancement; 4th level spell, 10 mins/level.

Evard's menacing tentacles (PHB2) is a third level spell (druid, sor/wiz) that gives 2 tentacles with 10 feat reach. It is a standard action buff with round/level duration, but: you can attack with each tentacle as a free action once per round; i.e., you can cast the spell, move to target, and attack in the same round. Another neat thing is that each tentacle can make one attack of opportunity per round.

Align Fang (2), and its mass version (3) can be usable.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Bastian February 27, 2011, 09:24:03 AM
Nice guide!  I've already recommended it to some friends.

: Solo
The Ghost Shroud from the MiC costs 5,000 gp and will grant you a +1 deflection bonus to AC and give your attacks the Ghost Touch property, allowing you to bust ghosts.
 How about this instead:  Gauntlets of Ghost Fighting (MIC, 216)  4,000gp

"This pair of heavy, black leather gloves bears suns and skulls of gold on the knuckles and around each wrist."

(I could see alowing for 'fingerless' leather gloves... all the cool kids from the 80's are doing it)

The wearer deals damage normally to incorporeal creatures with spells or attacks, ignoring the 50% miss chance.  Also, melee attacks made by the wearer deal an extra 1d6 damage vs incorporeal foes.

A thousand gp cheaper and you swap the +1 deflection (that you probably already have from a Ring of Protection) for an extra 1d6 damage and give ghost touch-like effect to your spells or "Attacks" (read: any attack? incarnum, (Su), breath weapon, etc...).

It's cheap enough that you could +50% slap it on another set of gloves...

Nice find! I am so getting this for my current character (we tend to fight a lot of ghosts).
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: bearsarebrown February 27, 2011, 11:45:54 AM
Person_Man has a great guide to getting more natural attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595) and increasing effective size (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777) over at GitP.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Solo February 27, 2011, 04:20:15 PM
Which were linked to in the original post, iirc.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: bearsarebrown February 27, 2011, 04:29:04 PM
 :twitch :banghead Reading fail. Soul Eater from BoVD might be worth mention of adding Negative Levels to each natural attack.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: AtomicKitKat February 28, 2011, 11:40:41 PM
:twitch :banghead Reading fail. Soul Eater from BoVD might be worth mention of adding Negative Levels to each natural attack.

Nice. Bonuses which are not specific to a single type of natural weapon work best. That being said, Claws of the Beast adds 1 point to each Natural Attack/UAS for each Abyssal Heritor Feat possessed(despite the fluff portion implying it affects Sneak Attacks, which it doesn't mention at all anywhere else! Edit fail.). At the very least, it's like getting Weapon Specialisation at half the price, for half the effect, except it's to at least 2 weapon types(UAS and 1 Natural Attack), if not more, so more than pays for itself.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Echoes March 08, 2011, 04:29:06 AM
The Thayan Gladiator PrC from Champions of Ruin needs a mention at some point. It can potentially triple the number of natural attacks you can make (if all of your attacks are of the same type, i.e. claw, bite, tentacle, etc), along with other sexy bonuses.

: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: AtomicKitKat March 09, 2011, 09:46:29 AM
I might be misremembering, but Thrall of Baphomet from an issue of Dragon granted either a Bite or a Gore(if you had one, it gave you the other). If you had both, both went up a size category in damage. :love

Also from Champions of Ruin, Thrall of Eltab(I think?) granted a Gore attack(too bad you can't be a Thrall to both). As far as how to get both a Bite and a Gore, probably Feral Minotaur. Lowest effective level I can think of to acquire both forms of attack is probably some kind of Feral Half-Satyr(or Half-Minotaur). For an option which won't have the DM slicing you with his DM screen, probably Geomancer.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Bigtuna March 10, 2011, 08:11:42 PM
The feat Dragon touched - from dragon magic, gives you the dragon subtype - that should be enough for rapid strike or? - if not i quess you need a template.
And rapid strike and imp. rapid strike- well if you have a lot of the same natural weapon them is nice..

: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Echoes March 11, 2011, 12:14:17 AM
The feat Dragon touched - from dragon magic, gives you the dragon subtype - that should be enough for rapid strike or? - if not i quess you need a template.
And rapid strike and imp. rapid strike- well if you have a lot of the same natural weapon them is nice..



Dragontouched gives the dragonblood subtype, which is entirely different from being a dragon. All that lets you do is use magic items that require you to be a dragon, as well as access dragonblood-specific effects.

Now, being a dragon automatically qualifies you for anything that requires the dragonblood subtype (which has hilarious side effects like qualifying for some PrCs out of the box), but it doesn't work the other way.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Bigtuna March 11, 2011, 07:11:49 AM
Thanks - I don't get the whole subtype/dragonblooded thing. So The Dragonborn template from RoD won't work either...

: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: awaken DM golem March 13, 2011, 05:54:26 PM

(Tri-Kreen)
ECL 1/Monterous humanoid 2 ... Ardent1/Totemist 2/Warmind 10/+4 X


The CPsi monster class for Thrikreen works here.

Not sure what you mean by "ECL 1".
In any case, the normal 2hd racial + 2LA = 4 levels;
and then LA buy-off takes care of the +2LA by level 20.
Opens up another level.

Warmind 5 is usually enough.
The Psi and MoI double class works, and on the Ardent side
without further help because of the 2nd level Warmind festing.

Thrikreen 2 / Ardent 1 / Totemist 2 / Warmind 5 / DualX 10
... gets to the 9s with some more CO-ing.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Bigtuna March 17, 2011, 10:41:06 AM
ECL - my way of writing LA +1.

The Tri-Kreen from Shining South has either LA +1 or LA +2 - i choose the one with only +1 loose a few psi-like abilities - but better than loosing a level to LA. (this could be controversial i just realise, some master might not let you do this)
If LA is allowed (it never is for poor me) this just makes more room for more fun.

Can't seem to find the Duel class - where is it from?
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: AtomicKitKat March 17, 2011, 01:42:08 PM
ECL - my way of writing LA +1.

The Tri-Kreen from Shining South has either LA +1 or LA +2 - i choose the one with only +1 loose a few psi-like abilities - but better than loosing a level to LA. (this could be controversial i just realise, some master might not let you do this)
If LA is allowed (it never is for poor me) this just makes more room for more fun.

Can't seem to find the Duel class - where is it from?

Can be confusing if you use one term but mean the other.

If you meant the Duelist, I think it's in Complete Warrior or Complete Adventurer.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Solo March 17, 2011, 03:49:50 PM
Duelist? That's a core prestige class.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: snakeman830 March 17, 2011, 04:30:20 PM
Necklace of Natural Attacks (SS) can apply to as many weapons as you want it to.  You just need to pay for each weapon it affects.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Bigtuna March 17, 2011, 06:24:04 PM
"Duelist" - no i think he is refering to  a class that advances both manifester and soulbinder.

And sorry for the confusion about LA and ECL.. I just copied from a doc, and didn't quite made it sense  :-)

: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Echoes March 17, 2011, 11:57:19 PM
"Duelist" - no i think he is refering to  a class that advances both manifester and soulbinder.

And sorry for the confusion about LA and ECL.. I just copied from a doc, and didn't quite made it sense  :-)



That would be the Soul Manifester (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) from the Mind's Eye column.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Midnight_v March 18, 2011, 06:10:41 AM
SOLO!  :lol
You're guide are epic, and they're getting better and better. Bravo.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: nijineko March 24, 2011, 02:25:15 AM
Very useful guide, thank you very much. ^^
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: DrPhro April 22, 2011, 12:06:30 PM
Thank you for this guide! I have to say that I love natural attacks because the stacking potential can lead to disgusting amounts of damage. My favorite char by far was a feral shifter. Warshaper and Weretouched Master are both easy entries (i guess the later makes it necessary) and both give a size increase at lvl 1! combine that with a braid of dire shifting (RoE) and Improved Natural Attack and suddenly those 1d8 claws become 6d6 claws  :love. It should also be noted that Black Blood Cultist (CoR) gets claws, a bite, and a size increase to both, though I'm not sure if it stacks with others.

Oh and this is my first post so... Hi  :p
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: mickeymacttack April 26, 2011, 01:01:41 AM
One question regarding this (sorry if this was posted already as I may have missed it).  How do natural attacks work with a monks unarmed strikes?  For instance say I have a level 1 monk with 2 claw attacks and a bite attack, if I make a full attack can I hit with my unarmed strike as my primary and my claws and bite as secondary?

I ask this because it specifically states in the monk section that a monk can make an unarmed attack with any part of her body, as such she is freely capable of making attacks while her hands are full.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: nijineko April 26, 2011, 02:30:27 AM
natural attack routines are not normally compatible with monk flurries. you can, however, use one natural attack as an off-hand attack at the usual penalties if you take certain options. some options allow for more. iirc. the FAQ has sections on this.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: mickeymacttack April 26, 2011, 05:35:10 AM
natural attack routines are not normally compatible with monk flurries. you can, however, use one natural attack as an off-hand attack at the usual penalties if you take certain options. some options allow for more. iirc. the FAQ has sections on this.

I read the FAQ but it doesn't actually answer the question asked, the main question asked regarding this was "Can a monk who has natural weapon attacks (such as a
centaur monk) attack unarmed and still use his natural weapons?"

Wizards went on to include an example but used flurry, my question is can a monk make a full round attack and use natural weapons as secondary attacks?  In other words as a 1st level monk with 2 claw attacks and a bite attack, on a full attack could I attack with UAS+claw1+claw2+bite or would I have to pick my UAS over my claws and bite?  I know you cant use flurry with another other than monk weapons, it specifically states this in the PHB.

The problem is it states that monks UAS count as both manufactured and natural weapons, well the rules of natural weapons are that you can have a primary and secondary attack with them, so by that logic and by the wording in unarmed strike for the monk I should be able to use my UAS as my primary natural attack and my claws and bite as secondaries.

Does that make sense?
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Solo April 26, 2011, 05:54:50 AM
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
This mean that they count as natural weapons when you're using iterative attacks.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Bigtuna April 26, 2011, 06:06:46 AM
I think by RAW the answer is YES. You can attack with a monks unarmed strike + natural attacks (se link below). Gaining ekstra attacks from high BAB on UAS.
You can either make the UAS with a primary limp (means you get a claw attack less), but doing full str dam OR count it as a secondary attack in which case you get to use you claws as primary attacks (full bab/full str dam), bite/UAS as secondary -5, and only ½ str dam.

Personally i wouldn't allow Confu Bears as a GM...  

Also: "monk cannot use a flurry when using anything other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon. A nonmonk weapon or a natural weapon can't be combined with a flurry in any way."


But see: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a


: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: DrPhro April 26, 2011, 06:33:57 PM
This is where is just becomes simpler to use the Beast strike feat, which adds your natural attack damage to your unarmed strikes. This allows you to still get your natural attack damage on a flurry and makes it so that you don't have to take as many penalties for each attack. I personally like it just because it speeds up game play. The only problem is that it came out of dragon magazine.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: nijineko April 27, 2011, 03:21:08 AM
i allow all 100% official wotc material in my games... do you recall which dragon mag, by chance, please?
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: skydragonknight April 27, 2011, 03:35:47 AM
Lots of talk of Totemists, but you're forgetting Totem Avatar's Shoulder bind which improves the damage of every natural weapon you have by one size category. So if you're already dipping Totemist then pick up Open Lesser(?) Chakra when you qualify...it's basically a superior Improved Natural Attack.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Ed-Zero September 28, 2011, 08:08:23 PM
One thing that's still not clear to me (or maybe im just not seeing it as I did read the guide) is how primary attacks work with your iterative attacks.

Say you have 2 claw attacks, a bite attack then a BAB of +10/+5. Does this mean that you make your 3 primary attacks then can punch for a 4th primarily attack and one more punch with your last BAB?

+10: claw claw bite punch (1st BAB attack)
+5: punch (2nd BAB attack)
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Echoes September 28, 2011, 08:46:56 PM
One thing that's still not clear to me (or maybe im just not seeing it as I did read the guide) is how primary attacks work with your iterative attacks.

Say you have 2 claw attacks, a bite attack then a BAB of +10/+5. Does this mean that you make your 3 primary attacks then can punch for a 4th primarily attack and one more punch with your last BAB?

+10: claw claw bite punch (1st BAB attack)
+5: punch (2nd BAB attack)

Iterative attacks always take priority. You would make your iterative attacks at +10/+5, and then you could make your natural attacks as secondary attacks at +5. Now, if you have Imp. Multiattack you get the attack sequence you listed, but the natural attacks would only get 1/2 Strength to damage because they're still secondary attacks.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: awaken DM golem September 29, 2011, 09:33:13 PM

... and Solo too.

"Duelist" - no i think he is refering to  a class that advances both manifester and soulbinder.

And sorry for the confusion about LA and ECL.. I just copied from a doc, and didn't quite made it sense  :-)



That would be the Soul Manifester (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) from the Mind's Eye column.

Right. Soul Manifester.

sry = go too fast and run = bad shorthand.




Thrikreen 2hd+2LA / Ardent 1 / Totemist 2 / Ardent +2 with Practiced Manifester feat
... at this point Ardent 3(+4) can pick the level 4 power in the back of MOI
that gives all those nifty binders for more Totemist goodies. Not bad for 9th level.
Begs to go Ardent 10 for DI. LA buy-off lets it happen a little after 14th level.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Flay Crimsonwind September 29, 2011, 09:51:06 PM
Now, being a dragon automatically qualifies you for anything that requires the dragonblood subtype (which has hilarious side effects like qualifying for some PrCs out of the box), but it doesn't work the other way.
Oh really? As a guy playing a dragon in an upcoming game, what prcs might these be? Is it just being a dragon (aka dragon type) that gets you in, or the massive number of sorc casting levels that usually come with?
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Ed-Zero September 29, 2011, 10:21:36 PM
One thing that's still not clear to me (or maybe im just not seeing it as I did read the guide) is how primary attacks work with your iterative attacks.

Say you have 2 claw attacks, a bite attack then a BAB of +10/+5. Does this mean that you make your 3 primary attacks then can punch for a 4th primarily attack and one more punch with your last BAB?

+10: claw claw bite punch (1st BAB attack)
+5: punch (2nd BAB attack)

Iterative attacks always take priority. You would make your iterative attacks at +10/+5, and then you could make your natural attacks as secondary attacks at +5. Now, if you have Imp. Multiattack you get the attack sequence you listed, but the natural attacks would only get 1/2 Strength to damage because they're still secondary attacks.
Thanks for the quick answer and also for having it be easy to understand. I appreciate it Echoes.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: snakeman830 September 29, 2011, 10:56:01 PM
Now, being a dragon automatically qualifies you for anything that requires the dragonblood subtype (which has hilarious side effects like qualifying for some PrCs out of the box), but it doesn't work the other way.
Oh really? As a guy playing a dragon in an upcoming game, what prcs might these be? Is it just being a dragon (aka dragon type) that gets you in, or the massive number of sorc casting levels that usually come with?
According to Races of the Dragon, simply having the Dragon type does it.  While possibly not RAI, they have a Silver Dragon being the example Singer of Concordance, despite it not meeting the Divine spellcasting prerequisite.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: gorfnad September 30, 2011, 03:07:44 PM
Blood Wind (SC) - spell that lets you make your natural attacks as ranged attacks out to a maximum of 20ft.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: nijineko October 01, 2011, 04:06:24 AM
that'll go nicely with this monk i know sporting a ring of greater mighty wallop....
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: thorian October 02, 2011, 04:32:06 AM
The Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic) grants INA and deals 1 Con damage on a critical hit, which is a pretty useful property to have. Only costs 10,000 gp.

The Fanged Ring grants INA (unarmed strike) and the 1 Con damage is only on a crit with an unarmed strike.  Unarmed strike is NOT the same as a natural weapon attack (unless your natural weapon IS unarmed strike).  So this doesn't help claws, bite, gore, slam, etc.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: AtomicKitKat October 18, 2011, 10:24:49 AM
Blood Wind (SC) - spell that lets you make your natural attacks as ranged attacks out to a maximum of 20ft.

I remember that one. IIRC something about flying headbutts. It's basically the Natural Attack equivalent of "ranged slash"(that anime trope where you slash so hard and so fast that a blade of displaced air can cut someone).
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: Talore October 18, 2011, 01:03:09 PM
Blood Wind (SC) - spell that lets you make your natural attacks as ranged attacks out to a maximum of 20ft.

I remember that one. IIRC something about flying headbutts. It's basically the Natural Attack equivalent of "ranged slash"(that anime trope where you slash so hard and so fast that a blade of displaced air can cut someone).
Turns out having your vampires dip a level of sorcerer, surprizing the party with ranged level drain, is pretty awesome.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: sirpercival October 18, 2011, 01:15:05 PM
Blood Wind (SC) - spell that lets you make your natural attacks as ranged attacks out to a maximum of 20ft.

I remember that one. IIRC something about flying headbutts. It's basically the Natural Attack equivalent of "ranged slash"(that anime trope where you slash so hard and so fast that a blade of displaced air can cut someone).

...which is a feat in Dragon Compendium, "Ring the Golden Bell".
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: nijineko October 18, 2011, 04:22:01 PM
the spell works better though. less restrictive, and better range. plus it does not count as a ranged attack, thus you can use all of your melee-based feats and class features on your attacks. ergo, if you have whirlwind strike, you can extinguish every candle in range in a single round ala kung fu panda, among others.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: JaronK October 18, 2011, 04:31:49 PM
An important thing to consider: it's never declared in the rules, but it's assumed that slams use your hands if you have them.  This is why a Giant has slams, but a Giant Skeleton loses his slams in favor of claw attacks (which use the same thing) as opposed to getting slams + claws.  RAW that shouldn't happen, but the designers evidently intended it.  Worth noting, at least.

JaronK
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: AtomicKitKat October 24, 2011, 04:36:50 PM
An important thing to consider: it's never declared in the rules, but it's assumed that slams use your hands if you have them.  This is why a Giant has slams, but a Giant Skeleton loses his slams in favor of claw attacks (which use the same thing) as opposed to getting slams + claws.  RAW that shouldn't happen, but the designers evidently intended it.  Worth noting, at least.

JaronK

Yeah, I figure Slams in D&D as being like sumo-slaps(see E-Honda). As delivered by a Large or bigger creature.
: Re: Natural Weapons and You: A Mini-Guide
: bearsarebrown October 24, 2011, 05:40:48 PM
I've always assumed Slams work like Unarmed Strike. It's not "I hit it with my fist/foot/head/finger," as much as "I hit it with my kung fu."

I believe the rules support this.